Is Nokia pulling the plug on Symbian? (About time!) And will it use Windows Phone 7?

Based on this article, Nokia is about to take a huge gamble.
In my personal opinion, Nokia will either live or die by this decision.
http://www.nytimes.com/external/vent...er=rss&emc=rss

is the most interesting company memo i've read ever.
this is the entire memo:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/08/n...honest-burnin/

I completly agree with his words. Nokia is losing all the market... because Symbian and Meego is shit compared with iphone and android ecosystems.


They are going to change to android ...
so....
what happen with qt??
:(
I bet this:
they are going to change to Android....
Qt is dead.
(nokia it's only interested in qt because they wanted to make a nice and easy developer enviroment for their mobile ecosystem)

I wouldn't be so pessimistic.
First, I understood more that Nokia is about to go with MS Phone 7, and not Android - they need something different than the others, and it seems they are betting on MS.
Second, no matter what platform they will be going on, they will still need a strong GUI framework, so Qt is going to stay around (in my opinion).
If they choose to go with Android (what I don't think is the case) its even better, since they will port Qt officially to support android to, which should not be a big deal.
There is an open source projects that is doing Qt port to android by the way.

So what ever OS Nokia is going to go with, Qt is not dead as long as Nokia needs strong GUI framework - and it does.

IMHO.

Windows phone 7 == shot in the foot
is the loser horse

In the full memo he talks about iphone and android.... not much about win7...
Android is free and open... is the way to go.

since Nokia control over qt.... qt 4.8... qt 4.7... qt 4.6... it's all about improving qt to facilitate symbian and meego development...

If they go to Android (or win7) I think that Nokia doesn't need to maintain a strong QT.
(of course they are not going to close QT... but they are not going to invest strongly on Qt)

i wish nokia sell Qt to some third party. So that Qt can start adding new things to its Desktop version instead of stretching the stupid things like QML.

Nokia will not abandon Symbian for a very long time since they have literally tens of millions of devices running that platform and Android or Win7 PE are unfit for handling low-end solutions. I doubt they would switch to Win7 Phone Edition because it's... well... not a good platform, so to speak. For me MeeGo is the way to go. Maemo is already ahead of iOS or Android if you compare the requirements and capabilities. What MeeGo is still lacking is the codebase which just has to appear some time and time and money needs to be invested in it. MeeGo is not just the phones, it's also a range of other types of devices (which is maybe a secondary issue for Nokia but not for Intel).

To be honest the conclusions drawn in both the quoted articles are somewhat farsighted. I don't see anywhere that Nokia intends to switch platforms or anything. The argument about switching to Win7 is probably based on the fact that the guy used to work for Microsoft, I think it is one of those "news" where the editor is paid to release a number of news a day and he needed one more article before going home. The quoted memo might as well mean that Nokia wants to focus on selling wellington boots again or merge with some fruit company. It's definitely not some inside-company memo, just look at the expressions used (e.g. how many times the company name is used, do you do that in your talks with co-workers?), it "leaked" to public on purpose and I'm sure Nokia's CEO wasn't struck by lightning yesterday and doesn't want to prepare a new company policy within two days behind everyone's backs. If you're expecting a thunderstorm, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by wysota

For me MeeGo is the way to go. Maemo is already ahead of iOS or Android if you compare the requirements and capabilities. What MeeGo is still lacking is the codebase which just has to appear some time and time and money needs to be invested in it. .

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Maemo maybe is ahead of iOS and Android... but that doesn't mind....
You need the best professional developers in the world craving to develop in your system...
Nowadays iOS is the only interesting platform for professional developers.... because you can earn a lot of money selling your apps in the App Store.
Maemo is far far far away from that.
So... why happy iOS developers are going to develop for maemo now?
That's a chimera.

Nokia must go to Android...
is the only platform capable of beat iOS. (because for developers is a very attractive platform)

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Originally Posted by javimoya

Maemo maybe is ahead of iOS and Android... but that doesn't mind....
You need the best professional developers in the world craving to develop in your system...
Nowadays iOS is the only interesting platform for professional developers.... because you can earn a lot of money selling your apps in the App Store.
Maemo is far far far away from that.

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Note this is not the fault of the platform. iOS had to start from something too. This is all related to marketing and technical base for developers.

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So... why happy iOS developers are going to develop for maemo now?
That's a chimera.

Nokia must go to Android...

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"So... why happy iOS developers are going to develop for Android now?"

This is not really an argument. All those happy developers used to develop for other platforms a couple of years ago and something caused them to switch. If Qt bridges the difference between different platforms, it's a good motivation for developers to use it. If one can write an app for iOS in native API and sell it to X people or can write the same application in Qt (assuming it'll eventually get ported to iOS) and sell it to X+Y+Z people using iOS, Android and MeeGo, I'd say that was a good trigger to think about not being tied to a specific platform. That was always Qt's advantage and I don't see why this advantage shouldn't be carried to the mobile world. For me the biggest thunderstorm would be if Nokia decided to officially port Qt to iOS and Android to attract developers. To me it's a win-win situation for Nokia, at least on the software market. Hardware then needs to follow. Knowing the fact that you can install Linux on practically anything, I wouldn't be suprised if there appeared solutions for reflashing Android or iOS-based devices to Linux (MeeGo). It's not something Nokia (as in hardware vendor) would take advantage of but that's their problem.

My guess is that the announcement will be about MeeGo, hopefully the launch of a MeeGo phone ;)

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Originally Posted by Zlatomir

My guess is that the announcement will be about MeeGo, hopefully the launch of a MeeGo phone ;)

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That's very unlikely considering the guy seems dissapointed in MeeGo. Maybe they'll announce they are firing half of the staff? :P

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Maybe they'll announce they are firing half of the staff?

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I think this is more likely then we might suspect... :-\

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Added after 34 minutes:

By the way - if you google Phone 7 review, you will find out that so far, it gets generally surprisingly good reviews, which reinforces the articles assumption, that Nokia is about to partner with MS.
We'll have to wait and see.

I don't know his feelings about MeeGo, but if Nokia install 7 on their phones how are they going to convince all the developers to switch to C# and .net?
Also Microsoft "open" Windows phone 7 platform for Qt seems unlikely. //this will be a good thing

So as i see it: they made interpretable announcements to attract all the eyes to MeeGo phone launch
... or maybe they make a trade: Nokia launch phone 7 and Microsoft allows Qt applications for it (if i remember correctly they already have a mobile "pact" signed for a couple of years)

The Android platform has an unofficial Qt port... so Nokia phone with Android OS shouldn't surprise us... but i still bet on MeeGo

Anyway Qt won't die... not even the one for mobile phones

hahaha... he will fire half the staff, then what? nokia will stop making phones and only become a reseller for fruit-phone?

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Originally Posted by high_flyer

By the way - if you google Phone 7 review, you will find out that so far, it gets generally surprisingly good reviews, which reinforces the articles assumption, that Nokia is about to partner with MS.
We'll have to wait and see.

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Well, I heard Microsoft had lots of trouble selling devices equipped with their brand new OS. I don't know how the situation looks now and I don't care since this is a really crappy system.

Plus in order for Nokia to sell WP7 phones. It would require Nokia to port Qt to .NET. I would love to see Qt for .NET, don't get me wrong. But I highly doubt Nokia would do that. So that's how you can tell Nokia will not use Windows.

Open Letter from CEO Stephen Elop, Nokia and CEO Steve Ballmer, Microsoft

• Microsoft development tools will be used to create applications to run on Nokia Windows Phones, allowing developers to easily leverage the ecosystem’s global reach.


is that mean QT will be abandoned gradually by NOKIA?

Unless they want to drop Qt. Which would be a pure waste of money of course.

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Added after 7 minutes:

http://conversations.nokia.com/nokia-strategy-2011/

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Originally Posted by hashb

is that mean QT will be abandoned gradually by NOKIA?

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I can't personally see Qt being dropped. It's too valuable a technology. Also, though Nokia is going with Microsoft, it doesn't quite make sense to me while they would only want to target WP7. What about Android? They probably ought to target both in my view, and they could easily do that with Qt, so...

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Originally Posted by nish

i wish nokia sell Qt to some third party. So that Qt can start adding new things to its Desktop version instead of stretching the stupid things like QML.

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Strongly agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:mad:
It is quite sad to see how several top managers can destroy shareholder's wealth with just a pen. I am fortunate enough not to own Nokia or Microsoft shares (Bill apparently thinks the same way, he is known to drop 1/8th of his MSFT holdings this year), but I am invested in Qt. This alliance is bad news. Microsoft is known for killing the technologies that they consider to be threats. Just remember a wholesale purchase of Borland team.

My prediction is that the bulk of Qt team will be bought with salaries and hired to VC teams or elsewere in M$S.

Now it's official...
Nokia joint with Windows Phone 7...
And they are not going to adapt QT to develop for Win7Phone.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/n...s-phone-devel/
Qt is dead for Nokia.
:mad:

so the story is-

restart symbian
sudo kill -9 symbian
start meego
sudo kill meego (no -9 coz we can hope with intel)
boot win
BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH

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Added after 5 minutes:

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Originally Posted by TorAn

My prediction is that the bulk of Qt team will be bought with salaries and hired to VC teams or elsewere in M$S.

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and they will turn Qt into Qt.net and kill linux and mac ports.

Let's wait for an official statement from Qt/Nokia without heating the atmosphere too much, please.

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Originally Posted by javimoya

Now it's official...
Nokia joint with Windows Phone 7...
And they are not going to adapt QT to develop for Win7Phone.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/n...s-phone-devel/
Qt is dead for Nokia.
:mad:

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Dead - not yet at least, based on what I read in the link.
However:
In the statement, it is clear (to me) that Qt is not going to be used for the new Win7Phones.
This means, that Nokias main energy (==money) will be invested in using Win7.
Based on this link, they are not planing to use Qt for that - but what ever MS tool kits, and they will allow Qt to live for the sake of Symbian (as wasota correctly noted, they have too many devices out there to just ignore them).
However, if Nokia will stop producing new Symbian phones (which I think is likely), then its just a matter of time, (2-3 years?) when Symbian wont be a strong enough reason to keep Qt alive.
My guess is that porting Qt to W7Phone is going to be a rather easy port - so there are good chances a community port is going to appear soon.
I wonder, if the community will then sway with Nokia and MS and leave Qt, or will Qt still continue to be a major player for the Nokia phones - by the community.
I think the community will have to brace its self for the day, that Qt is officially abandoned by Nokia, and probably it will have to turn to be a pure community project.
Thank god, Qt is GPL and now the LGPL licensed, so that MS wont be able to take away (legally) what is already available.

But, we'll have to wait and see, these are turbulent times for sure.

Remember the "Qt poisson pill" scheme is still in effect so Qt will certainly not be dead nor will it be hijacked or somehow ruined by partnership with MS. This is a much stronger guarantee than the LGPL licence.

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Remember the "Qt poisson pill" scheme is still in effect so Qt will certainly not be dead nor will it be hijacked or somehow ruined by partnership with MS. This is a much stronger guarantee than the LGPL licence.

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Well, yes and no, and depends :-)
The KDE poison pill is in effect very similar to the GPL/LGPL license, its just a stronger legal form of it, and its good.
But it only means what I said - that IF Qt gets abandoned by Nokia, at least the community gets to keep what is already there - so its not conflicting with what I said, just making it stronger.
But, even though it allows the community to keep Qt (which is very important) it does not guarantee that any major player (Trolltech/Nokia) will continue to develop it - and that I call "dead".
Not in the sense that its not there and available, but that it will not be actively developed.
But there are live community project which live quite good - for example WxWidgets.
However, even KDE is dependent on companies to give it is power for a quality and steady development and maintenance.
So "Dead" here is a relative term.

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"Qt poisson pill" scheme is still in effect

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I would not be so sure. It is only a matter of legal budgets between parties that are going to the courts. Nokia vs MSoft? It is not even funny.

I am not following Qt development outside official Nokia-supported branch, but may be someone here can comment on what is going on with Qt outside of Nokia. Is KDE team developing core Qt or they are using Nokia Qt?

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Originally Posted by TorAn

I would not be so sure. It is only a matter of legal budgets between parties that are going to the courts. Nokia vs MSoft? It is not even funny.

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Microsoft has nothing to do with this. The clause says that if Qt stops being published as open source or the changes in the closed source version of Qt are not propagated to the OS version then the last published OS release of Qt automatically goes into public domain (i.e. is also published on BSD licence) so anyone can do anything with it including continuing development and selling as their own product.

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Originally Posted by wysota

Microsoft has nothing to do with this. .

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Microsoft has everything to do with this. They deliberately target competing platforms. Qt is a competing platform. I personally moved from .NET to Qt. For me Qt won and .NET lost and I am sure there are many people like me who chose Qt over .NET and their C++ frameworks. I think that MSoft/Nokia will start with severely lengthening release schedules and reduction of Qt team. They will save legal budget by keeping Qt alive - on life support. And if necessary they will go to courts. One does not have to win if it has the money, it will be enougth to stall and delay.
I am very pessimistic on Qt future now. The only way that is good for "us" is a quick sale of Qt division to an interesting party, but I have a feeling that MSoft will not allow this to happend. And now Nokia might see advantage in killing Qt, since it competes with MSoft offering which they plan to use.:mad:

Does Nokia already have phones that rely on Qt?
(edit: I mean large series, not a few development models)

Personally, I was very very annoyed during the last year because Qt on the desktop wasn't developed anymore, just a few bug fixes here and there. :-(

Few months after former M$ worker starts as CEO of Nokia, the company abandons Symbian and decides to switch to Windows Phone. Well, I'm almost surprised...

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the company abandons Symbian and decides to switch to Windows Phone.

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At the moment, they did not abandon Symbian - read the links through.
It might happen, but not yet.

In my personal view, abandoning Symbian is not a bad move - and one that Nokia should have done years ago, and in part, is responsible for their current dire straits.
The problem is more the switch to W7Phone, and the treatment of Qt as a result.

Lets see how this turns out.

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At the moment, they did not abandon Symbian - read the links through.

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Yes, you're right. Just after reading this:

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(Symbian) has proven to be non-competitive in leading markets (...) is proving to be an increasingly difficult environment in which to develop to meet the continuously expanding consumer requirements, leading to slowness in product development (...)

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I think it's just a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by TorAn

I think that MSoft/Nokia will start with severely lengthening release schedules and reduction of Qt team. They will save legal budget by keeping Qt alive - on life support. And if necessary they will go to courts. One does not have to win if it has the money, it will be enougth to stall and delay.

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Qt is still an asset for Nokia, killing it the way you say would be like cuting your own veins and spilling your own blood. I know this used to be considered healthy in the dark ages but we're past dark ages now. Qt might possibly lose priority for Nokia but it doesn't become its adversary.

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I am very pessimistic on Qt future now. The only way that is good for "us" is a quick sale of Qt division to an interesting party, but I have a feeling that MSoft will not allow this to happend. And now Nokia might see advantage in killing Qt, since it competes with MSoft offering which they plan to use.:mad:

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Nokia doesn't merge with Microsoft, they are to cooperate. Nokia will not kill Qt just because it is in Microsoft's interest. Besides, what is most important is that Qt is open-source, nobody can take it away from us. Whatever happens in future, Qt 4.7.1 LGPL is here to stay.

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Originally Posted by tbscope

Does Nokia already have phones that rely on Qt?
(edit: I mean large series, not a few development models)

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It depends what you mean by "rely". Every recent Symbian based phone comes with Qt on-board. How many applications use it, I'm unable to say.

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Personally, I was very very annoyed during the last year because Qt on the desktop wasn't developed anymore, just a few bug fixes here and there. :-(

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Trust me, you are not alone. I would even say a majority of people developing with Qt feels the same.

Does all these mean,that Qt apps may not be cross-platform anymore,or?

Microsoft OF COURSE is interested in killing QT.
Because QT is bringing awesome multiplatform apps (win, linux and mac).
And Microsoft doesn't like that.

That's the reason because in the agreenment Microsoft forces Nokia to use their development system.

And of course QT is dead.
¿are you going to develop to a deprecated system -symbian-?

QT desktop development is dead since Nokia adquisition...
and now QT mobile develepoment is dead too.

:(

I love QT... and these are terrible news.

@javimoya, and others:
please, when you write such things, use the term "in my opinion", when things you say ARE you opinion, and not facts you can back up.
Readers of such a post that know very little about the subject can get all kind of wrong ideas.

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That's the reason because in the agreenment Microsoft forces Nokia to use their development system.

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This is probably not true, since otherwise MS would have bought Qt long before Nokia, and could have then pull the plug on it, which it didn't.
The article is saying what MS interest is - which is gaining a strong foot in the moblie market, which so far they have been lagging behind in.
MS actually (in my opinion) doesn't care much about Qt, as long as their OS is on the phone.
Qt is more an interest of Nokia, since they have invested quite a bit in it so far.

Don't jump to conclusions so fast.

Wait and see.

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Originally Posted by high_flyer

@javimoya, and others:
please, when you write such things, use the term "in my opinion", when things you say ARE you opinion, and not facts you can back up.
Readers of such a post that know very little about the subject can get all kind of wrong ideas.

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http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/n...s-phone-devel/
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/rip-symbian/

Sorry, but the links you posted don't say that Microsoft forces Nokia to do anything. It is only said that there is no intention to port Qt to WP7. WP7 sales are bad, that's a fact and what Microsoft wants is to get hardware to run their OS on. I don't think they are particularily interested in doing anything with Qt and I'm sure they wouldn't form an alliance with Nokia just to get rid of Qt ;) Let's not be so megalomaniac. And to paraphrase the classic "The report of Qt for Desktop's death is an exaggeration". Qt will live on, don't worry about it.

They (Nokia) said MeeGo will be launched... also don't forget that MeeGo has Intel sustaining it too.

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Originally Posted by wysota

Sorry, but the links you posted don't say that Microsoft forces Nokia to do anything. It is only said that there is no intention to port Qt to WP7. WP7 sales are bad, that's a fact and what Microsoft wants is to get hardware to run their OS on. I don't think they are particularily interested in doing anything with Qt and I'm sure they wouldn't form an alliance with Nokia just to get rid of Qt ;) Let's not be so megalomaniac. And to paraphrase the classic "The report of Qt for Desktop's death is an exaggeration". Qt will live on, don't worry about it.

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I really really hope that you are right.


Nokia dev forums are very worry too:
http://developer.qt.nokia.com/forums/viewthread/3767/
http://developer.qt.nokia.com/forums/viewthread/2675/
http://developer.qt.nokia.com/forums/viewthread/3732/

Trolls say that they want to make a clarification notice this weekend.

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Originally Posted by Zlatomir

They (Nokia) said MeeGo will be launched... also don't forget that MeeGo has Intel sustaining it too.

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they said that 1 (ONE) device with meego will be launch this year.
That's all.

if you see the charts posted by nokia...no more important meego investment is expected.

I know, I'm in contact with the Trolls. Expect a message to be posted (also) on our frontpage at the beginning of next week. Until then let's keep our nerves. Qt is not going to vanish off the market, don't worry. Qt was doing fine before Nokia took over, it will do fine even if Nokia throws it away and nobody said so far they are going to throw it away. So far all the decisions we know of are marketing decisions.

The only thing I'm currently worried of is that lots of developers in Nokia (and I don't mean the Qt Development Framework staff) will lose their jobs as most software development inside Nokia will probably be moved to Microsoft. We are speaking about probably a few hundred thousand people all over the world.

By the way, the chart posted by Nokia (linked here: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/rip-symbian/) is pure marketing. It suggests Symbian sales are going to be replaced by WP7 sales which is an obvious lie :) Especially that it's Google who snatched a large slice of the market from Nokia and I'm not sure replacing one outdated system with another outdated system is going to change the trend.

Nokia and Microsoft Announce Plans for a Broad Strategic Partnership to Build a New Global Mobile Ecosystem

http://www.nokia.com/press/press-rel...newsid=1488007

Perhaps this news represents a problem for the free software community to use the Qt.

I can't remember disagreeing with the gurus here before, but Microsoft's intent is definitely (and singularly) to kill Qt. Remember Bill Gates said they should do everything to wipe out netscape even though they don't make any money off browsers. Even if Microsoft was projected to lose billions of dollars to kill Qt they would do it. In a heart beat.

Qt presents a strong open-source native compiled alternative to .NET and Java, but the problem is there is little market appetite for cross platform software or high-performance software. The average farmer in Kansas doesn't want software to run on every platform -he just wants something to run on his computer (Windows). Qt never caught on in America for that reason, and -despite America's declining market strength- America is far and away the world's largest consumer of everything.

Prediction: expect Red Hat to buy it and make it profitable, but -like Red Hat- it will be part of a niche market that few programmers will want to put on their resumes.

:mad: if they are not gonna use Qt.. :mad:
I do agree with high_flyer and nish. Its hard Qt will die, and if Qt port for android happens, it will be best for developers and business.

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Originally Posted by javimoya

is the most interesting company memo i've read ever.


I completly agree with his words. Nokia is losing all the market... because Symbian and Meego is shit compared with iphone and android ecosystems.

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Losing all what market? Nokia phones are among the most popular phones on the planet. They haven't done well in the US market, but in Europe and Asia they rule.

Impact on Qt: near zero. All significant portions of Qt are under open source licenses, and can move easily and without impediment to a new home. Whether that home will be good or bad for Qt remains to be seen, but there's enough momentum behind Qt on the desktop (it hasn't really generated much traction as a phone OS) to ensure its survival for quite a long time. Qt is now being used in major universities as a cross-platform GUI development toolkit, as well.

I think this is bad decision on Nokia's part, but I don't see it having much of an effect on Qt.

This is exactly what MS did with Novell:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

(and for the same reason: cross-platform competition).

A good business model is to start a cross-platform software provider (since there is always demand for this since Microsoft is always vacuuming up the last one) and develop it until it has a small profile. Then Microsoft will buy it.

Am wondering how those trolls ( ex - Trolltechs ) at Nokia are feeling :(
Its quite disappointing about having a dream - Qt Everywhere being shaken :crying:

Really wish Qt goes to someone with caring and safeguarding hands.

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Originally Posted by aamer4yu

Am wondering how those trolls ( ex - Trolltechs ) at Nokia are feeling :(
Its quite disappointing about having a dream - Qt Everywhere being shaken :crying:

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I think I know how they feel but I don't want to share my knowledge here and now.

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Really wish Qt goes to someone with caring and safeguarding hands.

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Don't worry, everything is in order so far. From good source I know Qt Development Frameworks has been functioning as usual today.

@everybody: We are the Qt Community. We make Qt strong. If we don't abandon it, there is no possibility for it to vanish. So let's keep being strong and supportive for the people who have been making us proud to know Qt and promote Qt. I dare you to express your support for Qt here and now in this potentially difficult moment.

I know that whatever happens I will keep supporting Qt because it is a good framework that is a friend of a C++ developer. Period. "I support the Trolls".

I think M$ will not allow this kind of thing happen.

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Originally Posted by aamer4yu

:mad: if they are not gonna use Qt.. :mad:
I do agree with high_flyer and nish. Its hard Qt will die, and if Qt port for android happens, it will be best for developers and business.

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Added after 4 minutes:

The only thing to do is to separate QT from Nokia,
and QT should never been sold to any companys !!!
why I like QT before? because I think it is independent to any platform and its graceful design

the time it was acquired by Nokia ,I think it was a really really BAD idea
and now QT and all QT fans get a bitter pill to swallow

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I know that whatever happens I will keep supporting Qt because it is a good framework that is a friend of a C++ developer. Period. "I support the Trolls".

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Same here.. I support Qt too. Apart from being a good framework, Qt is a passion to most of the developers out there. And it wont vanish :)


@hashb

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the time it was acquired by Nokia ,I think it was a really really BAD idea
and now QT and all QT fans get a bitter pill to swallow

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I dont think it was that bad.. There have been a lot of work in Qt and also Nokia has tried to promote Qt a lot. Industry is now AWARE of something called Qt. So lets not forget the good things that have happened amidst this one announcement.

Also even if Nokia stops support for Qt, there is community. And am sure the first thing that will happen is port to android.(It will be again a hitback for Nokia) If that happens the obvious thing for companies using android will be to support Qt.
So its a win-win situation for Qt !!